Observations from a lowly Mage

[Merelinaus]

I've been raiding with RoA now for a bit over a month, and I've observed a few trends that concern me. Treat this as constructive criticism, whining, or venting if you will, but it is a concern not just for me. So, here goes:

1) This guild, as of late, has talked a lot about "progression." But, I think we need to define exactly what "progression" is. Raid leadership has, for the past 3-4 weeks, been attempting to rally enough support from our weekly Karazhan group (which pretty much has turned Kara into a loot/badge farm) to go into Zul'Aman. However, I don't think Zul'Aman our ultimate goal. In fact, it seems rather short-sighted. The original raid progression in Burning Crusade put Gruul's Lair after Karazhan. The addition of Zul'Aman is sort of a segue from the original progression. There has been a lot of talk lately about Gruul's Lair. I've seen guilds set up (much more successfully than we are) for Gruul's Lair. Typical gearing for a new raiding guild starts with a core of 10 people who gear out of Kara. Once everyone in that group has most of their gear out of Kara, the group keeps key members (usually Healers and Tanks) and rotates in a new group of DPS. When the two teams of DPS are about equally geared, it becomes a straight rotation. When we started Karazhan, we had 10 people, so it was okay for us to treat it as a badge and loot farm. However, as Kuracynn was so nice to point out, we have expanded, and every new member (four completely new, by my count) wants one of our highly-coveted raid spots. This causes a small problem. Toes have been stepped on, whether it be intentional or accidental, and the guild is beginning not to meet those expectations. If the goal of RoA is truly to progress, we need to take a hard look at what priority is given in handing out these spots. I know that current raid leadership has very high expectations of commitment to the raid and showing up no matter what we do. I think we need a clear outline of what commitment to the raid is; because, if you ask me, there's a lot more to it than just showing up week to week. Kura touched a little on this in a recent conversation I had with him. Things like effort into bettering the raid group as a whole--including things like giving up raid spots when there is a lesser-geared person who needs more than badges of justice. I know I'm guilty of not doing this, and I know I'm not the only one. It's cool having more than a stack of void crystals in the bank and I really love having 130 Badges of Justice. However, it makes me feel a little bit guilty knowing that 22 of those were earned at the expense of adding a raid member by helping him gear. Frankly, I think helping people who aren't geared for Karazhan should be counted toward helping the raid, because overall, it is better for the raid. We can't do Gruul's lair with 10 people, after all. Basically, this one boils down to this:
While we are a close-knit raid group, we have newcomers who are very good players and some are better geared than others. Until we can provide enough spots in Karazhan (i.e. the mysterious second Karazhan raid that hasn't gotten off the ground yet) I think that the prioritization needs to be rethought a little before spots are given out each week.
-My solution: ROTATIONS. Let me explain: We, as a guild, are overgeared for Karazhan. I don't think I'm alone in my thoughts that every fight in that castle is a joke, save maybe Nightbane. If the guild truly wants to progress (to 25-man instances) we need to set up a rotation, primarily of DPS. I have no doubt in my mind that we can clear Kara even if we rotate in people in sub-par gear. I know we can do this, because we've done it. My first week in Kara, we cleared all but Nightbane and I was under-geared. We've PuGed a rogue in greens and cleared the top of Karazhan without much issue. If we write a schedule of what DPS players are going which week, we can avoid hurt feelings and frustration caused by prepping, completely, and then not getting a spot. Also, if we know in advance who is scheduled for what week, those who only do Kara for the badges can set up with badge-farming groups instead, so that our guild members who need more than badges can have a chance at them. Those in need of the most pieces should be in the rotation most frequently (they're more likely to have fewer badges, anyway), while those who only need 2-3 items should only be in the rotation for the bosses they need. On off-weeks, people could either line up their own Kara group, or do something other than raid .

2) Our guild, from my perspective, is really nice. But, I've been with you guys for quite a while. It has been brought to my attention that some members of the guild get a bit flaky when it comes to doing something that doesn't involve the much-loved Badges of Justice. This is not a criticism of all guild members. Some members have been more than helpful and jump at the opportunity to work with myself, Blorr, and Kryssy in the never-ending quest to get Blorr into Karazhan. However, other members of the guild turn a deaf ear to anything not immediately followed by "heroic." What's worse is that this only seems to be a problem when I'm not available and Blorr is trying to organize his own group with the guild. I'm not delusional enough to think that I have that much influence in the guild; however, I am curious to know why people are willing to go in a group I've organized, regardless of heroic status, but not one Blorr has organized. Most people who have played with Blorr know that he is a very good healer and is an overall nice guy. He doesn't bite. I like to think that I'm friends with some of the guild members, but part of being a guild is getting to know the other members, one of the best ways to do that is to group with them. This point kind of segues into my next point, so I'll just move on to that one.

3) The world does not revolve around Badges of Justice. I know that the Shattered Sun Offensive added some RIDICULOUSLY good gear that use these magical little Epic items as currency; however, this gear is not the be-all and end-all gear in the game. Better gear can, and will, be obtained by guilds that work to progress. Part of progression is having 25 raid-quality players who can get together regularly to own the hell out of some ugly mobs with skulls for levels. I know that I want a lot of that gear. However, I also recognize that it is in the raid and the guild's best interest if I forgo a week or two in Kara in order to grant a lesser-geared person a chance to get in. It is also in the raid's and guild's best interest to sacrifice a little personally to better the group as a whole. Sometimes this means doing a non-heroic, sometimes, it means going all the way out to Hellfire Peninsula to help someone do a quest. Bettering the guild and raid as a whole takes many forms. I don't know if many of you don't know all the ways we can benefit or possibly you don't care, but what I do know is that we don't do enough of this. There are countless threads on the boards from previous times to this effect. So, I'll conclude with my suggestions for improvement:

1) Require a posting by every active raider for every character they raid on with what gear they need (and these lists should be checked against the armory to see if they missed anything). If someone doesn't know what they need out of Karazhan (while highly unlikely) they should seek help in finding out what they need.

2) Write out a rotation of DPS players (and this will entail a rotation of tanks, as well, due to DPS alts) with high priority given to those who need the most loot. Make sure that the rotation is public and possibly keep a list of alternates in case life gets in the way or (heaven forbid) someone just doesn't show up.

3) Don't be afraid to group with People who aren't yet 70 or can't do heroics. I know that everybody's time is precious, but in the long run, you are bettering RoA's chances of progression.

4) Learn to see past the purple items. This goes back a little bit to number 3. I know that we all want to be in all epics and we all want to have every upgrade, but we can't get every upgrade until we're farming Sunwell Plateau, and last I checked, we were quite a ways from that. Progression takes time, and sometimes your time is better spent helping us get to the 25 total raiders mark (we're not there yet and we can't progress until we are).

That's all. If I've pissed anyone off, so be it...let the flame war begin. These are just my observations as of late. Do what you will with them. But please, for the love of god, if you have something to say about anything I've said here, say it to me. I don't need half a guild talking behind my back like a bunch of Jr. High Girls. We're all adults.

[Kuracynn]

Hello Mere, sorry it took so long to respond, I've been busy plus Ife been putting a lot of thought into this.

First, I want to thank you for bringing up your issues in a constructive manner. In my experience most will just let it stir and fester and never try to do anything about it.

Anywho, for my reply.

1) Progression. We have a loose idea of where we are headed and where we would like to be. Zul'Aman, according to Blizzard posters, is a post Karazhan raid. Its an option of where to go after you get bored with Kara. In my experience its a lot more difficult than it needs to be for that, hence why its considered a segue from Tier 5 content.

I am working with another guild to figure out a 25 man raid alliance for Gruul's and eventually Mag. If it works out, we will be doing that. If not I will keep looking, perhaps do a bit of Heavy recruiting to beef up our player base.

I have nothing against your Rotation idea, and I wouldn't mind exploring it a bit more with Lupi.

2) Blorr and Instance groups.

I have yet to see Blorr have problems organize a guild run. If its happening, I'm sorry. It may be because hes new, I have no idea. I will do my best to help out when I can, raid days are a bad time to ask for obvious reasons. Honestly, hes a bit quiet. Hence why I didn't know he was having problems.

Another thing I notice (and I apologize if I am mistaken) Blorr and Kryssy hang out on another Vent server. Its not a bad thing, but it does give the perception that they are hanging out with another group of friends. Possibly a group thats helping them out.

3) Badge of Justice

You are right, the world doesn't revolve around BoJ. The World (of Warcraft) does revolve around personal character progression. The easiest way to get said gear is badges. Its a sad fact of the game. The new badge gear is basically Tier 5 and a half. Yeah, its not the be all end all, but its damned close.

As for helping out. I do what I can, please dont think that my not helping you 100% of time time when you need it is because I dont care. Sometimes I honestly feel like you need to do some things on your own. Im not going to babysit you while questing just so you can get done a little bit quicker. Just recently someone asked me to run them through the entire Cypher of Damnation questline. I told them no, I did 95% of it on my own and I earned the rewards. Im willing to help with the group quests in the questline, but not the "go kill ten boars" parts.

I will try to be a little more helpful from now on, just don't expect me to gear your character for you. Fair enough?

Ive also been rolling around a DKP like idea in my head. One that would reward helpful behavior such as...gearing up the under geared. Not flaking out in raids, helping with "progression nights" (read "you die a lot"), bailing out people that forget stuff, donating items and funds to the guild bank. Etc.

I'm still working on it, stay tuned!

Any other questions or concerns, put em here.
peace
-Kura

[Merelinaus]

I'm glad to know that your response took time because you put thought into it and not because you were trying to quell the rage it incited. So, I'll do you the same justice:

1) I hope to get raid leadership (i.e. Lupi/Karita) input on the idea of scheduling a rotation, especially since we have moved beyond the original group of 10 owning Kara every week. A guild has to adapt to changes in it, and I think the easiest solution to our growing number of interested people is a scheduled rotation that is public. If assistance is requested in working this out, I would be more than happy to help, I know that Karita and I have management experience and could probably work this out in a fair, and successful manner. The only problems are that it would be incredibly dependent on the reliability of everyone involved.

2) I can't stress enough that this was not a criticism of everyone in the guild. There was one specific incident of which Blorr spoke when relaying this to me. I may screw up the exact details, because I was not directly involved, but roughly what happened was he'd been asking if people were available for an instance group in guild chat with no response (This was a Tuesday, I believe). However, when Alwiz showed up and asked for a group for the same instance on heroic difficulty, it was as though the breath of life fell over the guild and Alwiz had a group within minutes. Again, I was not there and the was relayed to me after the fact, so the details may be off. If it's not as much of a problem as I make it out to be, I'm sorry, my details may be skewed. On the topic of the other vent server, the three of us (Blorr, Kryssy, and I) do often hang out on another vent server because we are all friends in RL; however, when grouped with the guild, we change servers. Usually they are grouped with each other to make communication easy. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I now see how this could appear elitist. I'll encourage them to hang out on RoA vent when possible. I guess before I call guildies out on not embracing new members, I should probably do what I can to encourage them to embrace the guild, as well.

3) I like your proposal of a DKP system. However, you also say that WoW does revolve around personal character progression. At 70, there are only three ways to better your character: skills, gear, and spec. Gear is a big part of it. I'm all for getting the SSO badge loot. It's amazing and hard to top until you get into Mt. Hyjal. Loot rules in the guild are (as you say, set to change, but also) a bit flawed. As near as I can discern, an Epic-Epic upgrade interval is treated the same as a Rare-Epic interval, and ultimately, I think this holds us back. I'm all for everyone getting upgrades, but I think we need to rethink it a bit. A mage gaining 4 DPS from replacing a pair of epic bracers with new epic bracers doesn't do as much as a warlock gaining 9 DPS from replacing a pair of rare bracers with the same epic bracers. I will say that I am VERY guilty of violating this same point of logic, because I'm obsessed with good gear, but it's this line of thinking that can hold us back. I would just like to see more concern with the raid as a whole, and less for everyone's personal betterment. You say the game revolves around personal betterment, but this overlooks the fact that you can't play the endgame alone. Basing loot on contribution to the raid is great, I like to think that the efforts I put forth will be rewarded if my Kara loot ever drops again, but I don't want that to happen if the item was more of an upgrade for Constantina or Starwhisper. Maybe I'm just being overly humanitarian, but I think as a raid eying the 25-mans we need to start considering the raid as a whole. I think that invites need to take need into account as well as the loot rules. I think that badges need also be included in the loot, as well, under the same premise as a rare-epic upgrade is more beneficial to the raid than an epic-epic upgrade, in most circumstances. Hence the suggestion of rotating DPS on a set schedule.

As always, I'm open to discussion and would really appreciate a lot of people's opinions on these subjects. Maybe I'm being closed-minded, naive, and whiny, but it's something to consider. I would really love to hear out of Karita and/or Lupi as well as other raid members to see if others share my concerns. Again, thank you for responding in a civil manner, and hopefully we can work these things out. I probably sound opinionated, but I want a lot of input :-)

I want to make a disclaimer here that I don't have any personal issues with anyone in the guild and while some of these criticisms seem targeted, but they really aren't. I appreciate everything you guys have done for me and my friends thus far, these are just things I see that we could do better.

[kareya]

Lup is likely the best to reply on this Mere but I'll add my 2 cents, I just hope this isnt all over the place

The problem with getting 2 runs until this week mostly has been, in any one block the most people we have listed as available during raid hours, even partially, is 13 that are willing to go without further steps (gearing etc). Picking up alts we can now squeeze in an extra run most likely without having to pick up too many PUGs but again it all comes down to availability, in fact we did run a second group this week and looked around for those who are missing out and during the entire 7pm - 12am period only 2 people that needed to get in and hadnt, logged in on the first day (not counting those that needed to gear more) I believe we're going to be trying to get the 2 groups running from this week onwards. One other issue we're facing with this is with some, the fact that times dont meet the raid times, if we did it only when 99.9% could make it we'd be running 2 days for one clear at about 2 hours a night after our speed is up, with this comes 2 problems.... 1. quite a few have stated they cant or wont raid more than 2 nights a week and 2. Considering 1. this leaves us no time to advance whatsoever as the availabilities are all similar and Thurs and Fri are the only days we have 10 or over that *can* raid. Another suggestion has been offered by one of the newer members however in regards to availability and that is that anyone who wants to come to raid thats not available from 7pm - 12am they find coverage for the remainder of the run that they cant be there for and coverage must be available to immediately switch in when they leave.

While I agree we need to get people geared, keep in mind we dont have to do the 25 man, *in guild* that is not the basis that ROA was formed on *or* the principle we work on, I believe that a raid alliance is being looked into, so technically we dont need 25 geared mains to move on to Gruuls.

For those that want to know the history of ROA, we started off really as a raid alliance or group including people from multiple guilds that raided each week. I came in when they were doing ZG well before Burning Crusade. When BC hit, some of the members of the raid group thought it would be cool to form ROA, the raid group, into a guild and bam, we have what we have today.

I've never really been a fan of DKP *however* I can see where that could come in, although I can also see noses out of joint because requirements for raiding would be held to more strictly and out there.

As for gearing one over the other, I would hope that in some situations people would pass, but on the other hand if someone only needed 1 item and said item, although not as big, was got, they could then move aside for someone say in lesser gear to get it. Ultimately for each item won, no matter who by, its 1 person less that needs it next time it drops, always keep that in mind

To simplify we're likely running 2 Kara raids for a while, which should give a lot a chance to get in, *IF* they are available.

Helping - I agree helping others get up should be a high priority, in fact the day that you mentioned, Lup and I had stepped up and said we could go but we had no other bites and hence not a full group and the run completely slipped my mind which I appologised to Blorr for at which point he said it was ok and logged, also we were earlier trying to rally help to fill the normal run without bites. You know yourself I have personally experienced the *ZOMG Heroic* issue when someone dropped from a normal group to run a heroic without word, which to this day I havent forgiven them for, NOR have I actually received an appology or even recognition it was done. I have brought up a similar issue before when everyone would prefer to stand around Shat complaining there werent enough for 70 instances instead of helping those out that needed to get up so they could *do* the 70 instances. In the particular incidence the other day however it just turned out there was a complete heroic but not enough for lower (and the request had been made while we were already in group) I dont deny there is sometimes an issue but I will say its getting better than it was, not all are Baldi's A suggestion might be 1. Look at the guild list of whos on, if we're in an instance, we cant go do another, maybe after however. 2. If its during raid times, *please* dont come in to raid channel on vent and ask people to run a group before 12am server. We're rather lax with raid vent rules but many guilds would vent kick you at the point you got the "would....." out of "would anyone like to run a heroic" if you spoke over a raid leader or raid chat, or in the case of poaching raid members, immediately. Basically have some consideration and it will get you further (the reasons I mention these is they have happened of late and I find the guild list issue happen regularly with newer people, theres no point asking if someone can run an instance there and then if everyone else on is either 1. in your group or 2. in another group)

Gearing - I do not agree that we're overgeared for Karazhan, unless we start counting badge loot, most of what anyone has is actually Karazhan gear, as for the badge loots, I personally only have 2 items from badges, the two cheapest and I turn up almost every week on that char. Most people that you suggest we swap out are actually still in need of Karazhan gear. *Also* on the point of doing Kara for badges, priority *should* be going to those who need loot as badges can be obtained other ways, such as Shattered Sun or Heroics, the only exception to this is if theres a hole needing to be filled.

Switching out is a good thing, just all I ask is PLEASE make sure you have coverage for the ENTIRE run. I know in some cases when RL has reared its ugly head, coverage that has been provided in some cases could only stay 2 - 3 hours out of 5, leaving us having to pause the raid to often PUG a replacement or take someone other than the coverage who can stay the entire time Admittedly if not planned this is not possible but if planned please find the complete coverage.

1) I like the idea of a similar to what we used to call a wish list back in the ZG days, this time it would be less of a loot priority thing than a heads up as to who still needs gear, I know Karita really only needs 1 thing more (no this doesnt include listing badges or badge gear as they may be obtained other ways) This doesnt mean that if someone is completely geared they wont get in but it will be more on a *need* basis.

2) Rotation will only be needed if and when we go back to 1 run but yes its a good idea. I believe I have stated raid times/days in my other post, if not, we are trying to raid 7pm - 12am Thurs - Sat, we will try to fit people in according to availability and coverage. Keeping a list of whos on what day past that is hard in a couple of ways which I've mentioned to you. Lets say...... I have seen how complete schedules and new content works and for this reason (I saw both sides) when we were in Soul Reckoning, they worked in a similar way, deciding on the day what we were doing on the basis of what we had.

3) Here here.... the more geared 70s we have the more people you have to group with and I do not agree with some peoples attitudes, of which in this case added to our reason to leave SR, "dont expect us to gear you or your alts" While I wont, I guess *twink* by going back on a 70 to do a much lower instance so another player can walk through, I will help with an appropriate levelled character *if* I can and RL doesnt happen, although being a parent and having certain medical conditions I cannot always be available. Oh just one note with Lup and I, its best to ask both if you want us to come, to avoid disappointment, as a couple we prefer to do stuffs *together*

I hope I've touched on all areas needing coverage. If not, feel free to prod me.

[blorr]

Whoot whoot my turn to say something!

As far as this guild and the Cenarion Circle are, they are completely amazing compared to what I did have. I've had literally countless groups fall apart because people had "better" things to do or run which has never happened with this guild or server.

On the topic of asking if people are interested to run an instance, I know I as at the most inappropriate time. Then again I usually try to word the question so that I am not like demanding a run now but mentioning that I would like to run an instance that night.

Also I may as well say it, I love instances. I run them every night now and I am willing to run any instance but I usually just ask to run instances that I still need gear out of. I am not unwilling to do Heroics but my gear just does not seem to be up to heroic standard in my mind, especially if I'm healer.

I run instances every night regardless if the guild is involved or not because I am still accustomed to the whole LFG part of WoW, I am almost an expert at using it. So if people can't or don't want to run an instance with me that's fine. Seriously getting groups together from LFG is almost like 200% better on this server than Firetree (old server), I can't ever find a tank with health lower than 10k anymore and people know what they are doing and how to play it's amazing.

As for needing people to run raids, if y'all need another person for one of the raid groups I got a 65 hunter on firetree still that could be lvled easily and quickly to 70. Then again Firetree is like dead to me so those characters are like sitting in the graveyard.